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 Healing in Raids

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Himerus

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Age : 27

PostSubject: Healing in Raids   Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:56 pm

Hey guys,

I have been looking at the healing we have in raids and the constant recruiting of more healers to the guild.. We have the (currently active ) healers:

-Kue
-Rarinbore
-Nuvali
-Blindy
-Stinkhoof
-Roshen
-Delhorno
-Orthar
-Charismi
-Himerus

And a few off spec healers.

These healer are very active and usually sign for raids. We get invited for a 25 man raid, which means we have 10 ( or maybe a few less )healers. Some may switch spec during the raid, but usually we have around 7 to 9 healers while raiding. What happens with so many healers is that we all have Recount add on opened up and we see our healing done. Ofcourse druid healers with their HoT heals are on top and Nuvali aswell( In her top 3 are all aoe and Hot healing.) When we are clearing trash mobs there is nearly no healing needed to keep people alive ( there may be some exceptions ), though when i look around at the other healers i see them non stop casting anyway.. Everyone on about 100% health and a lot of healers throwing heals.. that can only mean one thing: overhealing. A lot of it actually.

When i get damaged by an attack ( which usually is some aoe damage or a debuff.. not aggro from a mob ) i can easily heal myself with an instant heal or a quick flash light, but i see healing from nearly ALL healers on me, which heal me for more than triple my total health.. which is completely unnecesary. This is just for the trash mobs.When we get to a boss, for instance Kologarn in Ulduar (25). we lacked some dps on taking down his arms. If a few healers would've switched to their dps off-spec i'm pretty sure we could've downed this boss. Especially since there isn't all that much healing to be done untill he does his aoe over the raid, but 2 healers (maybe 3 ) couldve taken care of that, while 1 heals the main tank, and 1 on off tank and the one that gets stone gripped. Which means 4 or 5 healers, instead of 7 or more. A few healers less and few more dps could've done the trick. Though when this was proposed, we didn't try for this boss anymore and went on to Ignis. I don't understand why we cant just try it once with the new setup..


Especially for direct healers, Holy paladins and resto shamans ( excluding Riptide spell ), we aren't very meaningful at the moment. Damage is being healed by Hots of several druids and priests, which doesn't leave much to do for us.



I hope you guys understand what i'm trying to say here and consider trying to raid an evening or two ( just to see if it's going better ) with a new setup.
This should make it more challenging and fun for the healers in the raid, instead of all waiting for someone to take a few percent damage and throw massive heals at him. Most of the healers have a dps off spec so nobody has to be left out of the raid becuase of trying this new setup
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Roshen
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PostSubject: Re: Healing in Raids   Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:40 pm

The thing is Janne, that Razorscale is also healable with 5 (i just done it today on my alt on other realm http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=%D0%90%D0%B7%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%81&n=%D0%AD%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BB%D1%8E%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%B2) but the problem is that we dont have 5 geared healers to heal that i was with friends in ulduar 25 today so i was pretty carried however i ended top 2 on healing first one was full t8/5 geared druid, yes druids are overpowered however. Same for Kologarn i wasnt with you on kill tries, sadly fall asleep cause had hard working day but from what i heard not only dps were problem, healing was as well. Optimal raid setup for Ulduar 25-men with our current gear is 7-9 healers. Also by having low fps as healer you cant really count yourself as +1 healer since for us healers reaction what makes us heals more, do you really think i heal more since of aoe druid nature healing? i heal more cause i actually heal faster + aoe healing + hots which i can cast while jump, dance etc, thats all make possible to heal like that. What is more important that our guild have very good geared and experience tanks so that make healing much easier since timing cd's and movement knowledge prevent from unnecassary healing. So what you actually trying to say is make healing more responsoble, dividng healers responosbilities, ive tried that and its works but not really good, however thats will be needed for further ulduar fights like Hoddir.
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Garuna



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PostSubject: Re: Healing in Raids   Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:37 am

Roshen, I think you are missing the point my sister is trying to make here. While raiding himerus is simply noticing a lot of unnecesary healing and feels like she doesn't have much input in the healing proces in many cases. With that in mind, she comes to the conclusion that there are simply too many people healing at the same time at the cost of DPS. This general feeling became obvious in your encounter with Kologarn.

I don't think at any time that Himerus was questioning your skills as a druid Roshen. So there is no need to defend that. The post wasn't made to critize, but to optimize our raiding and to better the raiding feeling.

Also, reading the strategies posted on bosskillers, I notice most bosses in Ulduar suggest 4-6 healers only. That means it seems correct that we're using a bit too many healers. Dividing healer responsibilities in a better way indeed sounds like a good step towards a solution. Perhaps this is something healers could take a closer look at.
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Roshen
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PostSubject: Re: Healing in Raids   Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:59 am

No i am not defending myself Garuna, you got my msg wrong, also i point that Himerus need much better pc to be one of those 4-6 healers you are speaking about. More dps - less healing over time but more healing input and full focus and raid tasks, which we are a bit cant focus atm, since i dont think our healers are so experience and ready to get on that stage. Also about overhealing i dont care about that much neither healing on recount, as long people survived and healers had mana - task done. Yes i wasnt with you on Kalogarns tries but from Xarthan i heard not only dps was problem.
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Lithirrdys

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PostSubject: Re: Healing in Raids   Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:21 am

we had 9 healers on ignis. tanks had it sorted. dps had it sorted. healing was a mess. if 9 healers couldnt heal through ignis, then something is very wrong. with a full naxx25 geared raid, 6-7 healers with 1-2 of them having good dps offspec is the norm. has been since start of TBC. our healers (and infact all raiders really) are slightly undergeared for these encounters, so we take an extra healer or 2. also its worth remembering for some of the people new to healing, it is a big leap forward in terms of their raid role, to go from plenty of healers, to the bare minimum.

in short.

in naxx, we could survive with 5 healers easily. we outgear those fights. in ulduar (especially beyond cat lady) things WILL hit incredibly hard on the tanks, and nearly all bosses have raidwide AoE. we are slightly undergeared for these encounters. however, most of them have stupidly long enrage timers, or none at all, like ignis.

the night you speak of, kologarn, would not have been possible. we quickly realised this in the tank channel. both the boss and adds have stacking debuffs that increase teh damage we take. the laz0rbeam from his eyes was claiming to many lives, and we lacked dps. had we switched healers to dps, we would have seen an improvement, but it would not have been the 40k per 20 secs we need to take that arm down. not only that, but if adds are killing the OT, and the boss is allowed to 3 shot the MT when he has no debuff, then something is wrong with the healing. he hits VERY hard on the tank. he WILL 3 shot a tank if not healed. he WILL 3 shot a tank very quickly who lacks expertise rating. at this current time, we NEED several, dedicated healers on that tank, and maybe 1 extra incase the others get gripped. which is another thing with that fight. if you have only 2 healers assigned to a tank, or 2 to raid heal, or 2 to heal the grabbed people.... what happens when, not if, when those healers get grabbed at the same time?

ill tell you what. wipe.

ignis, on the other hand, has no enrage timer, is an easy fight, and can be done with 10 healers 3 tanks and 3 dps if needed. we lacked people on that day, regasrdless of what their role is, somethign was always going to be short, and it was in that case dps.
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Sanctissimus

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PostSubject: Re: Healing in Raids   Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:10 am

I already suggested more dps and less healers on kologarn, but the idea was not even considered. Himerus is right to bring it up again and discuss it in the wider context of a generally disturbed healing-dps balance in our raids. To be honest, I'm a bit surprised at the replies. The only post that actually tries to answer himerus' question is lith's post, but I'm not sure I can make sense of it. His logic of enrage timers and healing skills and gear leads to the conclusion that many healers and few dps isn't a problem on most bosses, yet his final conclusion is that we couldn't slay ignis because we didn't have enough dps.

As for Kologarn, it seemed to me the healers only failed when the right arm was not dps'd down fast enough. We were actually quite close to the 40k damage per 20 secs and with two more dps we would have reached the minimum amount of dps needed. I'm not saying it would have been a fight without problems in a setup with more dps, but it would at least have had an actual chance of success. It doesn't take advanced arithmetics to figure out that, if adding up the number of dps members times an average dps of 3k doesn't add up to the needed amount to get the right arm down, the fight with that particular setup will not do the job.

Also, if you actually divide the healing between regular phases and enrage/wipe phases, the difference between overhealing and healing done on many bosses is almost negligable. About half of our healers are either overhealing or falling asleep behind their computers, because there's nothing to heal. People lose focus if the setup is wrong. If we get the numbers right, things will improve a lot: better progress, less wipes, better focus and more pleasure for everyone.
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Lithirrdys

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PostSubject: Re: Healing in Raids   Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:40 pm

Sanctissimus wrote:

yet his final conclusion is that we couldn't slay ignis because we didn't have enough dps.

About half of our healers are either overhealing or falling asleep behind their computers, because there's nothing to heal. People lose focus if the setup is wrong. If we get the numbers right, things will improve a lot: better progress, less wipes, better focus and more pleasure for everyone.

two things in reply to your post, the important bits quoted above. i may not type in a friendly way to those for whom english is a second language. what i said about ignis, was that you could have 3 dps on him, it makes no difference, as he has no enrage timer. however, as tonight has again proven, 8 healers cannot perform the task to the required standard. tanks are dying to melee hits, ignis uses scorch, we move out of it, we get flame jets, ehaling is fine. then about 10 seconds inbetween the 2 abilities, all he does is melee hits. this seems to be where tanks are dying.

the second bit here, could well be why the first problem has arisen. if the healers are falling asleep, or losing focus, tehy are doing it wrong. if ANYONE in teh raid is falling asleep or losing focus they doing it wrong. healing is not jsut about topping up bars, its about knowing the encounter, knowing when a big hit is coming, and pre-empting it. healers need fast reactions which, if they are dozing off, they dont have. they need decent framerates so as to see an accurately timed health bar, they need to be aware of any AoE the boss has (in uld there is alot of that) and they need to be able to, you guessed it, not stand in the fire.


The simpler answer to himerus original post is this. so long as tanks keep dying from lack of heals, we will need all 9 of those healers. when/if the day comes when tanks are not dying every 30 seconds to melee hits on bosses, then, teh healer/dps balance can be shifted.


also this from himerus post "When i get damaged by an attack ( which usually is some aoe damage or a debuff.. not aggro from a mob ) i can easily heal myself with an instant heal or a quick flash light, but i see healing from nearly ALL healers on me, which heal me for more than triple my total health.. which is completely unnecesary" i have problems with. if your being hit by boss AoE, then in most fights, you shouldnt. if your the only one hit by it, ofc teh raid healers will heal you, that si there job. if you are assigned to a tank, you heal ONLY that tank, your health is for the raid healers to do. in this casse, if you are tank healing, and healing yourself up too, you are the cause of the overhealing, weather its yours or theirs that overheals. No recount can accuratly portray who healed who how often when why and where.

"i'm pretty sure we could've downed this boss. Especially since there isn't all that much healing to be done untill he does his aoe over the raid" this is another point. there is ALOT of damage to heal in this fight, do NOT underestimate it. you have up to 3 people being squeezed for high amounts in the right arm, you have an OT taking a debuff per rock blob, increasing damage taken by 5%, per few seconds. you have a MT who can, and WILL be 2 shotted by the boss, even without the stacking -20% armour debuff. that is 5 people to heal, taking between 5-30k per 1-2 seconds. that is ALOT of healing to be done.

YES the dps could be better
YES we need to recruit more of them, especially ranged
YES we need to nuke the hell out of that arm AFTER its picked up people (save CD's for then)
but
NO we cant spare any healing on that fight
NO 5 healers cannot heal the 5 people taking damage adequetly enough
NO with our average gear level, we SHOULD be doing so much more in terms of DPS and healing

If as you say, healers are slacking off because they THINK there is nothig to heal, then think again. there is LOTS to heal, but, slow healers will get outhealed by quicker healers, if your overhealing is huge, you may want to look into reaction speeds, and learn to preempt big hits

"Also, reading the strategies posted on bosskillers, I notice most bosses in Ulduar suggest 4-6 healers only. " this is probably true. hwever, these tactics are usually aimed at guilds who have had 3 months before 3.1 of farming naxx25 and all had the previous BiS items. we have many many people who still have not very great blues in their gear. healers included. enrage timers, if there are any, are no worry. tonight we had, 12? dps and if it wasnt for scrap bots passing through and healing, XT enrage timer would have been met. with 12 dps. if the tactics say take 18 dps, fine, but if we find, as we are, that tanks are dying, we can drop 2 dps for 2 healers, have the tanks live, and still kill the boss in time. as the old saying goes, better to be safe then sorry.
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Roshen
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PostSubject: Re: Healing in Raids   Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:31 pm

Healing is about doing specific job, either its tank or raid healing. If you tired you better not sign for raid that was posted in my post in other subforum. Tanks who doing own stuff without taking look on healer pov dying more than others yes. My mistake on Ignis was putting Blindy on MT while he had connection problems, whoever he did great on raid after and thanks God got dc only 1 single time after we probably wiped cause OT died. After i switched to Saurfang healing he died only 1 time from 4 wipes since me and Nuvali run oom while having a bit more overhealing done than usually since of bugs bringed with boss movements, adds debuffs lost etc so not 25 people in raid. You said 3 people will not bring 5kk hp of boss, on the best tries 2 rogues and Kenichi had done nearly 4k dps and dmg of 1.5kk each, still not 5kk true but we even not used heroism. Ignis fight was perfect today, we know we had problems first with with MT dying as i said after i switched problem was solved, however wasnt me who solved it, i had few very hard moments where actually just reaction and good latency saved the day, but thats a job of resto druid (which probably need to learn Blindy, however i doubt i doing it correct also, just using all possible game mechanic on MT healing according my class skills and glyphs). This fight require 8 healers with our level gear from what i saw, 3 MT healers, 2 OT's healers, 2 raid healers and 1 stalag pot healer worked great. Its more a healer fight true, but lets first have 25-men raid for a while to see how bad healing actually is and i actually do in 1 week "smth" which make it possible. More what i found important in raid is keeping atmosphere as much positive as possible, we playing this game for fun, we are not going for server firsts, we do have few people running own first characters, give it a time. Only problem is activity and its typical cause its summer and so many afk threads made. Every guild blame healers for tanks wipes idd rather go for constructive review over entire fight with tanks/healers gear, raid buffs for dpsers and right positioning which encounter needed. There is no need to make confrontation and put sarcasm in raids, keep going, keep trying and keep waiting on my and Xarthan's decision about last summer shoot on bringing us back to 40 people online or so.
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Sanctissimus

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PostSubject: Re: Healing in Raids   Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:21 am

Thanks for the elaborate replies. I understood everything you said even though english is my second language lith, and don´t worry, I haven´t spotted any hints of unfriendliness. It strikes me that both you and roshen take ignis as the main example to argue for many healers. As you said yourself, Roshen, ignis is basically a healer fight, so yes, I agree we need a lot of healers there.

However, the same reasoning doesn´t work for most other bosses. Almost all naxx bosses and many ulduar bosses have a typical 4 to 6 healer requirement, yet we always add at least one or two healers. Considering how many avoidable mistakes are made by healers (like lith's example of losing your only target (e.g. MT) to heal yourself), I understand why you think more healers will do the job. Still, I wonder about the need to have 9 or 10 people in healing gear while clearing trash and I can imagine healers losing focus when they're only actually needed on a few occasions.

Of course, progress isn;t our first priority. A good atmosphere is more important. Yet, the two can go hand in hand and input from members, even if it is criticism, can help us get there faster. We often rush through dungeons, expecting everyone to be quiet, not stopping to look at loot (I'm still not sure how people manage to proceed with killing trash while comparing gear and deciding on rolls in the 5 seconds they're allowed) and with no patience to listen at questions or criticism (well, we're invited to ask questions, but when someone actually does, typically something like "no mr. x, if you had listened to what I said or actually thought about it for 2 secs, you'd have known this isn't the case...so next time, jeez, pay attention, mr. x" or "no mr. x, we proceed according to plan because raid leader knows best" will follow). Even whispers will bluntly be answered on vent, making sure the name of the culprit is clearly stated as warning to everyone else who might have been thinking about asking their question. I won;t get further off topic, but since we're talking about the necessity of a good atmosphere, I thought I should point this out.


Maybe the best way for healers to learn how to do their job well is to trust them, help them, listen to their questions and ideas and train them under the right circumstances, i.e. with a proper raid setup.
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Xarthan

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PostSubject: Re: Healing in Raids   Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:30 am

Sanctissimus wrote:
proper raid setup.

proper raid setups wont be possible if ppl sign of cos of not proper raid setup, by doing so, you are making the problem worse.

the problem we have is that,

we have ALOT of melee classes
we are trying to get some more ranged classes in, but as lith already stated in other post in recruitment section, if we recruit them, they are barely online.
and the fact we are missing certain constant specs ín raids i.e. ret pala and shadow priest.

as roshen said, we are trying to get some problems solved, but certain things cant be done in just 1 day.
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Himerus

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PostSubject: Re: Healing in Raids   Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:57 am

Quote :
also this from himerus post "When i get damaged by an attack ( which usually is some aoe damage or a debuff.. not aggro from a mob ) i can easily heal myself with an instant heal or a quick flash light, but i see healing from nearly ALL healers on me, which heal me for more than triple my total health.. which is completely unnecesary" i have problems with. if your being hit by boss AoE, then in most fights, you shouldnt. if your the only one hit by it, ofc teh raid healers will heal you, that si there job. if you are assigned to a tank, you heal ONLY that tank, your health is for the raid healers to do.


I meant healing myself on trash mobs. ( as for example the mobs before Ignis, who cast the 'fire whirlwinds' ). Though when we encounter a boss i trust on the raid assigned healers to heal me in case i get damaged.
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Lithirrdys

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PostSubject: Re: Healing in Raids   Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:43 pm

Sanctissimus wrote:
(I'm still not sure how people manage to proceed with killing trash while comparing gear and deciding on rolls in the 5 seconds they're allowed)

this one i can asnwer in one word.


research.

work out BEFORE the raid, what is/isnt an upgrade, for example, EJ forums have links such as THIS which provide an accurate item stats weight system for determining the best in slot items. the one linked here is blood dps DK filter. to find it, i went to EJ, DK section, the first post i saw on blood DPS, scrolled down, and presto. Now i know what is an upgrade for a blood spec DK, without waiting 10 years after each boss kill while i compare stats. Similar wowhead links are avalible on EJ if you look in similar places. now please, no more excuses for poor performances
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Sanctissimus

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PostSubject: Re: Healing in Raids   Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:21 pm

I´m not sure how you manage to relate poor performance and the issues of rolling on items. Also, unfortunately I don´t have all day to memorize item lists. I´m glad if I manage to get my pots and food sorted before a raid. Thanks for the link though.
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Lithirrdys

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PostSubject: Re: Healing in Raids   Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:39 pm

you dont have to memorize shit. keep the link up in the background, tab, click the slot tab, scroll, job done. 5 clicks, and a bit of scrolling does not take up anytime.
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Roshen
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PostSubject: Re: Healing in Raids   Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:54 am

Closing this thread, we will go nowhere in this discussion.
Also i would like to remind for people that Qui Vive by no mean a hardcore raiding guild, but just guild who raid. Also some people were wondered about what is going on, why you play alt on other realm Roshen is Qui Vive is going disband and also spread out a bit of those rumors through Saurfang realm, so the answer is - No. Qui Vive not going disband there are 2 ways of improving and survive through summer innactivity times :
1) Already made by me in cooperation raid. Dont question that please i know 12 spots are not enough we have lately ~20-22 people online. Its made only for Ulduar 25 and maybe OS+2-+3. We will still raid as guild for naxx, voa as usually, but we will not go Ulduar 25 with 18-20 people anymore, since frustration of some people turns sadly in negotive immature reaction towards guild members, so i would like to avoid this mood in the guild as much as possible.
2) We take 2-3 week summer break with turning raiding days from 4 to 1-2 25-men and 2-10men. Sounds the best way to deal it and also this will just keep our guild busy and doing some stuff, also some evening heroics so achievements runs which bring back friendly atmosphere and help us view in past where we dont have activity problems.
However tried 1st way just to see how it goes first before i step out for 2nd or for 3rd way which is find some bunch of 10 people in small guild and force them merge is which : bring is to 1 more social group with own interest and divide/split our guild more but which probably make possible to have 25 people online back to NRT standby dkp system and get us choose over people instead of inviting just everyone who possible so having some people who just came online at 22:00 to check what is going on instead of ninja invite of me without even asking them as i am usually doing in past few days with Stinkhoof at last.
Regards Roshen, thread closed.
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